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 -Digital Medium Phobia?-

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Vignoble @ Co.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 9:13 am    -Digital Medium Phobia?- Reply with quoteBack to top



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by Yia Yia



Boudisque in Amsterdam is closing... A successful store, selling music for over 35 years
and known for its diverse range of music, is throwing in the towel. That, to tell you the
truth, was basically what set this whole thing off.

The very first thing most people think of, when looking for something to blame here, is
probably the commodified WWW, and above all the MP3. Not so strange, but after some
serious thinking, undeserved.

What seems to go without saying, is the fact that it is youth, causing this evolution if
not keeping it in tact. By downloading music to their i-pods and simply passing by the
stores that actually sell music in tangible form, they seem to waltz right over the nos-
talgia experienced by their parents. This is the message the media tend to send to us
and I must say, if it wasn
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Last edited by Vignoble @ Co. on Sat May 10, 2008 3:38 pm; edited 1 time in total

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René
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:12 am    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

A bit naive IMHO. Just accept things as they are. A steam train is also more exciting than the present electral trains.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:09 pm    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

I agree with Rene. The author is simply trying to comfort the listeners who are not all that happy with the "digital revolution". On the other hand, do they need to be comforted at all? After all, we all use the new media in ways that WE like and accept, nobody forces anyone to do what they don't want to, so I don't think there was any reason to write about this subject at all. After all, the "digital evolution" is something we can't do much about. However, some interesting questions were also brought up. The author says that we should let the youth decide how they like to enjoy their music. But the question lies in another field altogether. Do the current youth actually enjoy music as much as the older generation did? Do they live with their music, are they interested in trying to understand music, catching the author's drift etc? I have my doubts about it. The way I see it, the current youth enjoy music mostly as background. They don't have any will, nor time or power to dig deeper.
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dronescape
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 2:20 pm    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

Finding all sorts of music on the internet, having access to all sort of information ever produced. Great! Even better if you don
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Tropylium
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 8:13 pm    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

« Artemi » wrote:
However, some interesting questions were also brought up. The author says that we should let the youth decide how they like to enjoy their music. But the question lies in another field altogether. Do the current youth actually enjoy music as much as the older generation did? Do they live with their music, are they interested in trying to understand music, catching the author's drift etc? I have my doubts about it. The way I see it, the current youth enjoy music mostly as background. They don't have any will, nor time or power to dig deeper.


Sorry, but I'm calling bullshit on your underlying assumption there. Do many youth of today treat music as a commodity? Absolutely. But in the 60s, 70s, 80s

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 8:59 pm    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

Nice post, I think Tropylium hit it right on the head.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 9:11 pm    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

« Tropylium » wrote:
« Artemi » wrote:
However, some interesting questions were also brought up. The author says that we should let the youth decide how they like to enjoy their music. But the question lies in another field altogether. Do the current youth actually enjoy music as much as the older generation did? Do they live with their music, are they interested in trying to understand music, catching the author's drift etc? I have my doubts about it. The way I see it, the current youth enjoy music mostly as background. They don't have any will, nor time or power to dig deeper.


Sorry, but I'm calling bullshit on your underlying assumption there. Do many youth of today treat music as a commodity? Absolutely. But in the 60s, 70s, 80s
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:24 pm    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

You have to admit that the Internet has allowed the common music listener a much easier way to discover underground talent and non-mainstream music. Which means that there's a larger chance that those artists will gain recognition.

Regardless if the Internet existed or not, the vast majority of the population would only listen to top 40 because it's easy access music. It's not the Internet's fault that they're not interested in the underlying reasons why the music was made. They simply don't care. The fact that they can collect top hits doesn't change a thing.

Remember, we're the minority who enjoy music as much as we do. We always have been, and always will be. And I kind of like it that way. Smile

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:59 pm    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

Great. Finally it wasn
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:16 pm    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

« Altus » wrote:
You have to admit that the Internet has allowed the common music listener a much easier way to discover underground talent and non-mainstream music. Which means that there's a larger chance that those artists will gain recognition.


Also true. There are both negative and positive aspects of it. It's a two-ended stick as we say here in Russia.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:17 am    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

About the only things I miss from LPs or CDs is the artwork, and the fact that you could hold the album of music in your hands. I think the digital delivery system of music (iPods, mp3 players) is superior today from what a 17 year old had in the 1960s: some crappy mono transistor radio with a 2 inch speaker. In the late 70s came the 10 pound blasters seen on the shoulders of people walking down the street. Only the rich kids had parents with hi fidelity stereos at home.

Listening critically to an album of music takes time, and the competition today for a person's time is much fiercer than 20 or 30 years ago: cable/satellite television, with its hundreds of channels, satellite radio, sports, homework, jobs, etc. When I was younger there were only 3 channels on TV and they went off the air at midnight. So where do many people find the time to listen to music? Often it is in their car, which is not great for fidelity or concentrating on the musical content. IPods offer everyone a chance to listen to music when they can find the time, and the fidelity is decent. It might not be as good as your $1500 system in your home, but it's a lot better than portable players in the past.

What I find interesting is the stereo field is totally different with earbuds as compared to the spatial presence of separate speakers. Do producers take that in account when mixing a recording?

I think digital music is what has spared EM an early death. Berlin, ambient, experimental, all the out of the mainstream music finds new listeners everyday because of the internet. My digital sales are soon to surpass my CD sales.

Some of you may groan about the compressed mp3 medium, but you forget; like all the mediums of the past, MP3s will be replaced as technology advances. It probably won't be too many years.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:19 am    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

« Artemi » wrote:
There is a seed of reason in what you're saying, but calling other's thoughts bullshit smells of arrogance and rudeness.


"Calling bullshit on", FYI, is an idiomatic expression for disagreeing with a specific part, similar to "not buying it"

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:33 am    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

« Tropylium » wrote:
« Artemi » wrote:
There is a seed of reason in what you're saying, but calling other's thoughts bullshit smells of arrogance and rudeness.


"Calling bullshit on", FYI, is an idiomatic expression for disagreeing with a specific part, similar to "not buying it"
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:35 pm    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

Analogy:

Downloading digital music within the confines on one's house versus the "communal" experience of going to a brick and mortar store to peruse, hang out with others, and buy the concrete product.

Is it analogous to...

Owning a state of the art DVD/satellite system at home and either buying/renting "on demand" new releases or renting from deepdiscount, et al. or buying DVDs from DeepDiscount, Amazon.com, et al.

Rationale behind the analogy:

Flawed but reasonably pure....

Digital download person rejects the community/shared experience of going to a store, experience the sights, sounds, the tangible "feel" and packaging of the product in favor of ease of delivery, cost, and 24-hr access to a wider pool of options (i.e. CD titles). While the debate of sound quality of downloads vs. CD-Rs or redbook CDs will go on forever, for "most" non-audio-philes, the two media systems are interchangeable.

The person who never attends movies in theaters any more is choosing the other option (satellite on-demand, pay-per-view, online renting or buying) for some, not all, of the same reasons. The biggest similarities are the decision by the consumer to forego the communal/shared experience in favor of convenience and, in the case, of a premium home theater system, a perhaps better viewing experience (no cell phones, no talkers, no kids, etc. other distractions). The analogy is slightly flawed because the high-end home theater may produce a better cinematic experience for the viewer than most movie theaters, esp. if there is not one nearby with stadium seating, Dolby DTS, etc. However, the mp3 downloads are, arguably, not as good in musical reproduction as their redbook counterparts.

In each case, these commonalities are possible:

The CD buyer/movie theater patron is seeking more than the "net result" i.e. they want the total experience which accomanies the raw product. Whether it's the atmosphere of a music store, holding the liner notes and artwork in your hand, the interfacing woth friends or other fans...or in the case of the movie goer, the unique impossible-to-imitate "feeling" of sitting in a darkened auditorium with strangers to experience a movie on a huge screen...not to mention the sights and sounds that accompany that (not the movie, but smells from the concession stand, other people's laughter, screams, etc.)

Concluding: What seems to be at issue here is the investment by the consumer. The patron of brick and mortar stores doesn't mind if the selection isn't as good, if parking is a hassle, if prices are higher, etc. and ditto for the movie goer, who will pay high admission and ridiculous concession prices and drive maybe 30 to 45 minutes to get to a quality viewing venue. These people are "invested" in this process because it gives them something extra.

It's not about whether the home DVD viewer or music downloader is LESS invested in the movie/music "per se," i.e. the music itself stripped of artifice or the film regardless of how it is delivered to the senses. (Hell, I LOVE my DVDs and yet I go to films in theaters as often as I can). To infer one subgroup is ignorant or less cultural or less in touch with the artistic merits of a particular delivery system is at the least spurious. Yes, in some cases, it may be true, but there are also people who go to movies and "buy CDs" who treat the experience as nothing more than an afterthought. They are a whole other group that comes into play (not in this argument, though).

My prediction? CDs and brick and mortar will never ever go away completely. Not possible, at least not within 100 years. We would have to see an almost mind-boggling shift not just in technology but in marketing, sales, and the way we "buy" things, period. When we no longer have any kind of cash registers and credit cards and people tele-commute in the millions rather than go to work and seldom leave their houses at all, only then may we finally get there (and thank god I will be dead and buried by then).

Anyway, just my random thoughts. Carry on...nothing to see here anymore.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:20 pm    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

Naive? Or just in touch with the youth of today? I dont think this forum has many 15 year old general music consumers. It's a specialist forum for music that hasnt developed too much in recent years.

On the topic of youth, a new generation, new media, consumerism, "internet-itis", etc. There are many ways the internet is great. But I think the download generation of today and tomorrow will miss out on things that us oldies have fond memories of; making an effort to find new music, rummaging the bins and print catalogues of specialist (or general) music stores, waiting for packages to be delivered, making a choice of which LP or CD to buy because they are not free... There are some virtues out there that new music consumers are not getting to experience. I am not a psychologist who can say those virtues are all good, but I like to believe that patience pays off.

In the early 90s, I got a kick from ordering CDs from Sweden without having heard the songs before. They were described as "electronic" like JMJ and Kraftwerk. I took their word for it, and laid out about 55 euros for 3 CDs. Thankfully, their description held water; it was 3 albums by Laser Dance. Hate 'em or love 'em, at least they were not dark goth electro-pop! The feeling of discovering more of the type of music I enjoyed, in a time when such music was non-present in media and general shops, is a feeling I doubt I will have again.

Today? Just download samples, and if you dont like it, you are not forced to pay anytyhing. The internet makes it very easy, cheap and fast. It has contributed to the mentioned "lack of deep interest in real music" concept that was mentioned in the thread. We have internet-itis around us; an "illness" where people are impatient, uncritical, getting information overload, and develops short short attention spans.

There are some sides of the internet I dont like, but sometimes your only option is to behave pragmatic according to the realities.

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