EMPortal.info Forum Index The Gateway to Electronic Music
Navigation  •   Portal  •   Forum  •   Profile  •   Search  •   SmartFeed  •   Register  •   Log in to check your private messages  •  Log in

 -The Sad Old Seven-

Post new topicReply to topic
Author Message
GlennFolkvord
Very Cool Member





Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 222
Location: Sweden


norway.gif

PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 9:52 pm    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

« MarkM » wrote:

I was interested in the Madonna comment. I'm not a huge fan of hers, but I do admire her abilities to keep evolving. One the chief ways in which artists like Madonna keep evolving is that they are not afraid to seek out new, upcoming, and innovative producers. I doubt that happens in EM. The results are often the same old same-old. A good producer can inspire.


First, about Madonna: It appears that certain artists or entire genres are expected to be more conservative than others, such as EM, because I often see comments about how new directions by artists are interpreted as a step down in quality, if that new direction is not within what people like. While Madonna can be labelled innovative with her changes, other artists who change are labelled "out of sync".

Second, about producers: Almost no EM artists can afford to hire producers. We're back to the 10 classic 70s pioneers for that, and some film composers. Aside from the cost, I think many EM artists are afraid of producers and think they can add nothing. It's the "I want to do it all myself" syndrome. Just like that other thread here about mastering engineers. Not even record labels who are going to release albums are always allowed to "tamper" with music in production.

_________________
Glenn

http://www.jarre.no

HiddenView user's profileSend private messageVisit poster's website    
dlmorley
One of the Coolest Member





Joined: 01 Jul 2007
Posts: 817


blank.gif

PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 10:11 pm    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

I think the point with not using producers is probably more to do with instrumentation.
A band with a drummer, 2 guitars, vocals and bass for example need someone who has experience in balancing and recording all those instruments more than a solo artist with basically synths.

_________________
http://www.davidmorley.com
http://www.myspace.com/morleysmusic

OfflineView user's profileSend private messageVisit poster's website    
GlennFolkvord
Very Cool Member





Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 222
Location: Sweden


norway.gif

PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 10:25 pm    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

That's the job of the recording engineer. A producer is an artistic person who offers and makes artistic contributions.

I dont believe for a minute that a synth dude is having an easier job on selecting, arranging and playing thousands of sounds and working with music that is physically impossible to play.

Besides, the human factor is something you can never escape, no matter how few instruments and people you have "on stage"; the fact that you get immersed in your own stuff and dont hear see (hear) clearly. Sometimes the producer's job is simply to bring the artist down on his/her feet and say that a song stinks Smile

_________________
Glenn

http://www.jarre.no

HiddenView user's profileSend private messageVisit poster's website    
dlmorley
One of the Coolest Member





Joined: 01 Jul 2007
Posts: 817


blank.gif

PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 11:12 pm    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

I think an engineer does what the producer wants in general and the producer should know how to get the sound he (or the artist) wants (balancing the instruments in the soundfield and arrangement) OR you have engineers who in effect produce because they make the choices the producer should be making! A producer is responsible for the balance and how the music is recorded, NOT the engineer.

I've done my fair share of production and it involves stripping songs down, helping them decide how to play certain sections or themes, arranging, additions etc, BUT the songs are there already and these are invariably bands that just need guidance in how to make the songs as streamlined and powerful as possible.
With electronic music, almost always it is created and produced at the same time. EM artists in my opinion create at the same time as the production takes place OR the recording is a performance of sorts.
I don't see a producer being able to do much more with lots of EM artists than say whether he likes something or not.

Lots of EM duo's or groups actually divide themselves up anyway and one person is better at programming, another producing and another at performing.
Getting an external producer in for EM makes no sense. He will be a member of the band then (or a KDM figure)

_________________
http://www.davidmorley.com
http://www.myspace.com/morleysmusic

OfflineView user's profileSend private messageVisit poster's website    
Mac of BIOnighT
Even more Cool Member




Age: 56
Joined: 05 Feb 2007
Posts: 427
Location: Luino (VA), Italy


italy.gif

PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 11:17 pm    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

« dlmorley » wrote:
With electronic music, almost always it is created and produced at the same time. EM artists in my opinion create at the same time as the production takes place OR the recording is a performance of sorts.

Right Smile

HiddenView user's profileSend private messageSend e-mailVisit poster's website    
Feb birth
Even more Cool Member





Joined: 03 Feb 2007
Posts: 416
Location: Detroit 313


usa.gif

PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 11:19 pm    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

An honest and well thought out article by Artemi (imo). I would go as far as saying that most of what was said would have held true 20+ years ago.
HiddenView user's profileSend private message    
GlennFolkvord
Very Cool Member





Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 222
Location: Sweden


norway.gif

PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 11:56 pm    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

When dlmorley said "balancing and recording instruments" I thought he meant placement of microphones, etc. That's why I said it's the job of the engineer.

There is lots an external producer can add to an EM band. It can be everything from suggesting song structure change to adding effects and tweaks, to mixing... or to ask/decide that you use other instruments, sounds or reverbs. Whatever the artist has "produced" at the time of composing and/or recording can always be changed or reconsidered.

How you choose to define that person in the sleeve notes, member or not a member, is irrelevant. The point is to have one person that is dedicated to producing. Someone who is not immersed in the music too much but can offer a fresh view and experience from outside that particular project.

I am not too fond of this idea that EM artists have that they are best when left alone and can provide art from their lonely geniouses Laughing

_________________
Glenn

http://www.jarre.no

HiddenView user's profileSend private messageVisit poster's website    
modulator_esp
One of the Coolest Member




Age: 52
Joined: 03 Feb 2007
Posts: 2499


uk.gif

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 12:19 am    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

« GlennFolkvord » wrote:
I am not too fond of this idea that EM artists have that they are best when left alone and can provide art from their lonely geniouses Laughing


and I am of completely the opposite view. A lot of great art is made without any outside interference

and no doubt there are a spectrum of opinions between these polar opposites Wink

Art doesn't have to be polished to perfection to be art

_________________
adventures in sound

OfflineView user's profileSend private message    
Mac of BIOnighT
Even more Cool Member




Age: 56
Joined: 05 Feb 2007
Posts: 427
Location: Luino (VA), Italy


italy.gif

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 12:40 am    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

« modulator_esp » wrote:
Art doesn't have to be polished to perfection to be art

Doris Norton, the one and only woman I know of who made electronic music (no, Wendy Carlos doesn't count! Wink ) once told me: "Technical proficiency is not an essential requirement to let out the good and beauty that are in one's soul".

HiddenView user's profileSend private messageSend e-mailVisit poster's website    
Mac of BIOnighT
Even more Cool Member




Age: 56
Joined: 05 Feb 2007
Posts: 427
Location: Luino (VA), Italy


italy.gif

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 12:41 am    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

« Feb birth » wrote:
I would go as far as saying that most of what was said would have held true 20+ years ago.

Sadly true Sad

HiddenView user's profileSend private messageSend e-mailVisit poster's website    
BillBinkelman
Very Cool Member




Age: 66
Joined: 03 Feb 2007
Posts: 163
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA


usa.gif

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:26 am    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

« Mac of BIOnighT » wrote:
« modulator_esp » wrote:
Art doesn't have to be polished to perfection to be art

Doris Norton, the one and only woman I know of who made electronic music (no, Wendy Carlos doesn't count! Wink )


That's a rather caustic comment, IMO. I assume you're poking fun at the fact that she changed her gender.

Besides, as far as women go, you're forgetting Suzanne Ciani and Meg Bowles, at the least. There's also Stephanie Sante to consider, although she has moved on to a more jazz-influenced sound. And there's also Suzanne Doucet, too.

OfflineView user's profileSend private messageSend e-mailVisit poster's website    
BillBinkelman
Very Cool Member




Age: 66
Joined: 03 Feb 2007
Posts: 163
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA


usa.gif

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:31 am    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

As for producers, IMO, a good producer is what's needed in lots of EM, ambient and new age music. Artists "think" they know what's best, but they seldom do in regards to things like track sequencing, cover art, track length, mixing, instrumentation, and overall aesthestics. Some artists can produce their own work just fine whereas others could be GREATLY improved by a producer stepping in and saying "Uhh, well, maybe you should cut this 10 minute track to 7 or 6 minutes" (as an example). Granted, it takes a great (i.e. humble) artist to admit he/she doesn't know everything there is to know about music, but sometimes one gets too close to the source and loses perspective.

OTOH, if all one wants to do is offer up what one THINKS is great and if the world disagreees, then who cares, have at it. Wink

OfflineView user's profileSend private messageSend e-mailVisit poster's website    
Mac of BIOnighT
Even more Cool Member




Age: 56
Joined: 05 Feb 2007
Posts: 427
Location: Luino (VA), Italy


italy.gif

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:43 am    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

« BillBinkelman » wrote:
That's a rather caustic comment, IMO. I assume you're poking fun at the fact that she changed her gender.

Shocked Shocked Shocked Not at all, I'm just saying that because she was a guy, whatever it is that makes women dislike EM evidently wasn't present in her mental structure. I thought we had moved beyond "you cannot mention this or you're a racist/sexist/homophobic/whatever", personally I consider that so normal that I can talk about it with no problem, but that's just me, apparently Rolling Eyes I apologize if that offended anyone, but that's not what I meant at all, that was in the eye of the beholder...

« BillBinkelman » wrote:
Besides, as far as women go, you're forgetting Suzanne Ciani and Meg Bowles, at the least. There's also Stephanie Sante to consider, although she has moved on to a more jazz-influenced sound. And there's also Suzanne Doucet, too.

I should've specified better, I meant a different kind of EM (more Berlin School, computer based etc., if you knew Norton's work from the 80's you'd understand what I mean, with words only it's difficult for me to explain).

HiddenView user's profileSend private messageSend e-mailVisit poster's website    
BillBinkelman
Very Cool Member




Age: 66
Joined: 03 Feb 2007
Posts: 163
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA


usa.gif

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:00 pm    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

I didn't mean to attack you personally about your Wendy Carlos comment, and you didn't offend me, it's just odd, IMO, that you even mentioned it period. You're entitled to write whatever you want and I apologize for inferring otherwise. I recognize it was a throwaway reference as well.

That said, if you were limiting yourself to Berlin school type EM anyway, Carlos (Wendy or Walter) wouldn't apply anyway (which means it wasn't necessarty to even mention her at all), nor would, as you pointed out, Ciani.

Again, not meaning to raise your hackles, but as they say on the TV show Law and Order "You opened the door" and I walked in. Smile I'm sorry if my response was viewed as being overtly critical of you as a person. As I wrote above, you're entitled to state your views and, FWIW, I don't consider your opinion offensive. It just felt like an unncessary jab, that's all.

OfflineView user's profileSend private messageSend e-mailVisit poster's website    
Mac of BIOnighT
Even more Cool Member




Age: 56
Joined: 05 Feb 2007
Posts: 427
Location: Luino (VA), Italy


italy.gif

PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:39 am    (No subject) Reply with quoteBack to top

No problem, actually I think it was just some kind of intercultural misunderstanding due to our countries being so different (neither better than the other, just different) in their approach to things in general and delicate ones like this in particular (we've got transe xual politicians, for instance), nothing more Wink
History, friends again Smile

As to Carlos, her music definitely belongs in the kind of EM that's in my mind, her apporach to music was absolutely electronic, even when she played classical music. Ciani is no doubt New Age. IMO, it's not enough to use synth sounds to make EM, otherwise any pop song in the charts would be em... Miles Davis used synths, too, but that's still jazz. TD used guitars or real drums in their music, but that's still em. Ciani is not em, imo, Carlos is...
Norton was unique, never heard anything like it, but totally em.

HiddenView user's profileSend private messageSend e-mailVisit poster's website    
Display posts from previous:      
Post new topicReply to topic


 Jump to:   



Show permissions


© 2007-2019 EMPortal.info
Original logo design by Kimmo Heikkilä

CrackerTracker © 2004 - 2021 CBACK.de
Powered by Orion based on phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
FI Theme Converted by U.K. Forumimages
All times are GMT + 2 Hours